Factory fly gun rules question

Hi Chappo,

Just thinking about the Sako barrel issue and guy's who have had similar rifles in their safes for years ....

What calibres are your two L461's ?,
How long have you had them ?
and what barrels (brand and twist) are currently on them ?

Cheers

Anthony

The idea of  a 3rd class sounds good, with a pest hunter/sporter/varmint class added so the tactical shooters and so many modified field guns have a place to compete  realistically, while leaving factory class to the newer shooters and those with more limited budgets.  Even if the prizes for pest hunter/sporter/varmint class were limited to badges, the experienced shooters would still get to sling some lead and have bragging rights.

Hi all,

Finally got a chance to bang out another post. I still stand by my earlier statements on the general thrust of this thread (especially the advantage gained by a custom re-barrel) but would now like to widen the discussion a little.

It appears that two sets of rules are in play at this time. The original Leeton/Wagga/Melbourne (although Leeton seem to be off the radar of late) and the slightly modified Batemans Bay version. I will ask Anthony to put both up in a reply to this post as my IT qualifications are a bit limited. It will be good if one standard set of rules can be agreed to. The primary differences are -

1/   that the original rules allowed single-shot bolt action rifles, whilst B/B have banned them
2/  the first draft specified min trigger pull at .5kgm and B/B has only safe operation as a criteria
3/  B/B have specified a max fore-end width of 2.6". A subject  which was not addressed in the first draft

The thing to note is that the "Factory barrel" bit remains un-altered.

As the 300 is not a sanctioned SSAA match we can run to what ever rules we like at our ranges (subject to State Law) but it would be very handy to have a consensus across all participating ranges (if for no other reason than some other range wanting to try this event and wanting a firm footing to get started).

Some opinions on a universally accepted set of  'gentleman's agreement' set of rules for our three ranges would be appreciated.

For what it's worth I would continue to allow single-shot bolt action varminters and maintain the .5kgm trigger pull but would agree to the 2.6" fore-end thing.

Onto another train of thought. COST! Re-barreling even at 'mates rates' is still likely to equal or exceed the 'change-over' price of a used rifle for a new one (of same make and model) whether the sale of the somewhat used unit is private or a trade-in. One does not need to find the bucks (in full)  for a new rifle - only the change-over price.  Once again I feel that all arguments in favour of allowing re-barreling are "shot for shit" other than the 20 point handicap.

Final thought - re-barrel (other than same shitty original) is no longer "FACTORY".

Keep the comments coming!

Pete

Hi Pete,

I hadn't realised that there were multiple versions of these rules being used...... the ones used in Batemans Bay are up on the front page of this web site with the other rules, but here they are again for reference.
Factory_Class_rules.pdf

Maybe when Chappo gets back to his computer, he can add the wagga version of the rules to his reply to my earlier post ?

Might also ask Dave Groves to post the Canberra version if there are any differences there (Bat shoot has a factory class).

I know there was significant discussion on this a while ago, including Sako TRG, triggers, forend widths and other similar things.

The reasons for disallowing single shot rifles is that they are not usually standard hunting style factory rifles..., the functioning magazine clause counted out your "target" style factory rifles, similar to the 2.6" forend (savage 6BR is just one example that comes to mind).  The trigger weight removal was for several reasons a) Pain in the arse to triggers weigh at the start of a shoot, b) almost impossible to police in the case of set triggers or accu triggers..... and c) a lot of people play with or replace their triggers on all rifles and are not too keen on adjusting them back up to the required weight for this event.

I agree that it is good to keep this discussion going until we come to a common agreement with all parties.

Cheers
Anthony

Can see your point Pete but perhaps my calculator is wrong. New barrel varmint in chrome moly $500, free fitting into my L461 as opposed to $2600 for a new sako 85 and not available in my current calibre so add new dies and cases to my equation and sell a lovely old rifle.   Say I get $900 action value only and sell my old dies and cases for $200, factoring in new gun, cases, dies, rail is $3k-$1100 so change over of $1900 for same make of rifle.  That's a loss of $1400 to me.  
As I am shooting for two, me and young bloke, I have to be a little carefull on funds, but want best bang from buck both at events and dual use of rifle.  

I have no issues with scope mag, forend, trigger etc I just want to be able to replace a worn out  barrel.

Also can someone confirm BB rule of no single shots, I thought I saw a sako s/s on the line in February

Cheers
Greg

Hi Greg,

The scenario you have put forward is quite valid. The main point I would query is the choice of such an over-priced rifle as the Sako 85. If we substitute the Tikka T-3 Varmint costing half as much (yet with equal accuracy potential as the barrels come out of the same hammer-forging plant) then the change-over drops to about $600 which is only $100 more than your 'mates rates' re-barrel. This, in my opinion, throws your argument out the window.

Anyway, let's get back to discussion of the rules. We do need to get some consensus on this. Thus far I have been speaking largely on my own behalf as have others. I feel that we need to go back to our members at the respective clubs and canvas the thoughts of those members actively competing in factory class, especially those that shoot this class only. We, in Melbourne, will have our next club match on August 17th and I will get the folks together to sound them out. In turn our AGM is to be held in September at which time we can formally vote on our preferred version of the rules. As the match at Wagga is at the end of August I will be able to present the views of our members and hopefully have similar available from the Wagga and Batemans groups. Whatever points are then raised I will be able to put to our people at the AGM.

The main issues appear to be the current differences between the two existing sets of rules, the topic of re-barreling and possibly some debate over replacement stocks. Democracy is a wonderful thing - let's give it a chance to work.

Pete

CONTENTS DELETED

Hi Paul,

It is a good idea... but my hesitation is that there is no point having classes with only a few competitors.  Remembering that factory class is there as an additional class for those that want to throw a bit more lead down range.... as well as to encourage new shooters to have a go in a not so daunting class.  If we end up with a few experienced guys in Varmint Class and say 2 or three newer guys in factory class.... Neither class becomes worth running or winning.... no real encouragement there for new shooters.
The intention is to have people shoot it with entry level gear and have some fun, both competitively and socially with the newer shooters.....

The specialist Varmint crowd never turn up at events where scores are kept and groups are measured anyway....

The idea of the factory class rules is to stop people using modified/rebarreled or semi custom orientated gear to win this class.... we already have custom class where you can go your hardest.

Maybe one day when numbers for factory class and or varmint class are large enough... we will either run 3 classes, or even have dedicated days to factory & varmint class.

In the mean time, I look forward to seeing Chappo's reply and the wagga rules for comparison and discussion.

Cheers

Anthony

Pete, dont want to take this too far off track but in reply to your budget, your comments were in relation to same brand of rifle and I was just showing why that was not economically viable in my case.



Anyway here are the current (2010????) rules as sent to my by Don Ewin. That is what prompted my initial post here as I was of the belief that rebarrels were allowed.



cheers
Greg

Hi All,

Thanks chappo, they are hard to read like that, they don't display on my screen... Pete emailed me the Original draft of the rules that have been previously used at wagga.

For everyone's reference, here are both versions in the same format so you can read and compare

Version 1 Factory_Class_Draft1.pdf
Version 2 Factory_Class_rules.pdf

Cheers

Anthony

“Hi Chappo,  

Just thinking about this further…. I notice you didn’t answer my earlier questions on what your Sako L461’s were, what barrels are in them and how long you have had them….  

I also notice you are questioning the barrel replacement issue as well as our functioning magazine rule !!…. I see on AusVarmint that you were seeking 6ppc cases recently…I have also seen some 6PPC Sako’s change hands recently on Used Guns……

Please tell me that you haven’t just recently purchased a Sako L461 in 6mmPPC single shot action that you intend to use in factory class with a match barrel ?”... I hope I am miles off track and wrong here....

Cheers

Anthony

I agree with Anthony the smaller the class the quicker it dies off. The main event is the 500m fly everything else is purely fun. I can't read the Wagga rules off the web as a post like this Chappo can you PDF it or link it. If this is not a registered match, 300 Factory and the Governing body wants to run what ever rules they like they will have to exclude any reference to the fly rules. And folks enter as the Wagga Club dictates, Then shooters informed of the rules enter accordingly. That way chappo can have his rebarreled L461 Sako that has been with him for a long time, shoot at Wagga only and enjoy the day but others who have trued remingtons Factory actions, tight necks match chambers will also shoot in this class. Hell i might even crank out the old L461 in 6MMPPC and give it a whirl shoots like stink at 300 actually. But that is up to the Governing body.

I like the rules as they are but if they are different from location to location then and if there is an advantage by the rebarrel in factory are those people having a double slice of the two gun event !!

just my thoughts

  Ummm, great to see Chappo's dilema creating such interest!!
I've read every post over the last few days & I always find myself asking "what is factory class about?"

Initially it seems it was about getting new shooters to the line, now it's evolved to also be about allowing addicted shooters more range time and therefore more fun! Both are great ideas.

  I'm struggling to articulate my thoughts here but are we making some incorrect assumptions about the fox / crow  / long range varmint hunters who are most likely to enjoy our 500 fly events. I'm thinking these people are very interested in extreme accuracy even though they might not have shot in a match.
The current factory class rules seems to presume the people we are trying to attract have "shitty" rifles when in fact they might not. Sako TRG's and  Rem custom shop etc etc are excluded from factory class, presumably because they might out shoot a basic Winchester or Tikka, the result being the owner of the more basic rifle gets whipped & therefore discouraged from returning ( an assumption that in itself may not be correct!)
  Many of these highly accurate factory rifles are now sold as the factory's come to understand buyers are becoming more discerning. Thus Paul"s suggestion of another class to allow these shooters to come and have a go followed by the suggestion that tactical shooters have basically shown little interest in our events!

Back to the original intention of factory class....getting new shooters to the line.

Maybe we should be thinking about it from another angle....if factory class is about allowing new shooters to experience "fly" shooting and if seasoned "fly" shooters are wanting more trigger time "just for fun" why do we have any rules at all? ( other than State or Commonwealth regulations). Why don't we allow every one and everything to come to the line in one category?( Outside of full custom class).

Why ,also, do we have prizes? If there are no winners there are no losers. Scoring could be for personal interest or bragging rights only.
Maybe a fly patch, regardless of score, for any one who is a first timer, as a momento!

As far as Chappo and his re-barrelling issue goes.....I've tried to place myself in his shoes and I know I would have difficulty in passing up the opportunity to make my fox/ crow/rabbit rifle more accurate by simply putting on a new & better barrel, regardless of wether or not it disqualified me from "factory" class...I think I would shoot it anyway!

Regards,
Belly

Anthony, thats pretty close to the mark. I have always had anL461, this one is currently in 20VT so I know it doesnt comply but thats fine. I have always wanted a 6mmPPC Sako and as I saw one on the line at Batemans Bay in Feb competing in Factory class I naturally assumed they complied. So yes I have one on the way.  No its not a custom barrel just a replacement blue chrome molly in same profile, same twist and same neck as factory.

However that is not the ONLY reason I asked this question. If you see my posts on AusVarmints forum I have been asked by different people about bringing along their fox or crow rifle to use so that is what prompted my question here.

Hi Chappo i thought you said you already had 2 L461 (Where can I purchase factory barrels for my two sako L461's?) is the one on the way a 3rd.

Factory AL- L461 6PPC came out in 1987 in a 1:14 twist barrel which will handle bullets in the 68 grn class and below. wonderful for 100 and 200 Yards Looking forward to seeing it shoot 300 Metres

Hi All,

As this thread has gone off track a bit, in agreement with Chappo, I have removed the last few posts.... and we can all transition cleanly from here to an open discussion on the rules and going forward with full disclosure.

Cheers

Anthony