Nominating L/G or H/G for overall....

Hi,

Maybe this will be a contentious topic... but what better place to discuss this.

In the running of Fly shoots, there is the issue of people shooting both light and heavy gun and weather they should be required to nominate one for the overall win or for prizes, or a 2 gun event etc.

There are 2 schools of thought, and while the rules sepeerate the classes so there will always be a light gun winner and a heavy gun winner.... it is up to clubs running the events to decide on other criteria for prizes etc. There is a lot more arguments to this than the 2 below, but they are the 2 main ones I see.

One school of thought is that if people pay 2 nomination fees and enter twice, they should be allowed to use their best result for such things...

And the other school of thought is that that gives them 2 bites of the cherry so to speak and everyone else only gets one chance to win. On top of this is the percieved advantage of shooting twice and therefore giving them twice as many sighters and a better chance to pick the conditions well and if they get caught by the conditions in one, they will be more wary with the other.

I understand both points of view and think there is some merit either way.  I do kind of agree that if people enter twice and pay twice they should be allowed to use their best score.  But on this note, I really see it as an advantage if the same rifle is used for both categories. You can basically use one as sighters, trying for small group and learning the conditions and the other to shoot for score. Especially so if you stuff one target up in one of the classes.

I see maybe a good middle of  the road suggestion would be to allow people to enter both classes and take their best result with no nomination required, but 2 different rifles must be used.... both can be light guns if you like, but they must be different rifles.  This takes away the advantage of playing /learning with one detail and competing with the other...

If the same rifle is used for both, it would still qualify for light gun winner and or heavy gun winner... but one class must be pre nominated for overall or 2 gun.

What are your thoughts ?

Cheers

Anthony

I am glad that issues like this come on the site for discussion. I really don't see an advantage of shooting one gun in two classes yes they do get to bites of the cherry but the wind and mirage sorts that out in one way or another. For a two gun prize such as Batemans Bay it is up to you and the committee and the shooters who come will comply with what your local rules suggest. In every sport there is people who push the envelope however sooner or later they come unstuck.

Rules are rules and when i enter your shoot i will do what ever it takes to win but certainly not be taking and edge over other shooters. I can see your point about the two different guns i like that idea most. But some guys don't have two guns of any discription but with the way the open rules are they can enter a light gun twice and double their chances of winning something.

When you enter for the two gun event i think it should be your highest score what ever the gun you use travels with you to the next day. As you remember at Wagga even if you are in front on one day doesn't mean you will win the two gun event.

There are lots of  other issues, now that fly shooting is progressing such as developing 300m fly rules etc which i think is a great event to shoot and we should explore them to.

The recognition of hitting a fly target at two three and five hundred meters is really where it is at. It is not a group shoot, it is a score and group event with a fly hit as the icing on the cake. Everyone who takes a fly patch home is proud of that achievement.

I will enter however you guys dictate and for those who choose not to entre they will be missing a great event. Can't wait to get to the next batemans bay event.....

cheers Les

Anthony

The only time that we should have to nominate for a class would be if there were a limit on numbers in which case you nominate your prefered and then if the event fills last in only gets to shoot once.

As of yet I can't think of a time that someone shooting in two classes has had an advantage that has been enough to show up in the results.

My opinion is that if your silly enough to enter both classes and run your ass off all day then feel free, and those who have entered both classes know what I am talking about.

I know this subject is not going to go away as there are one or two people who are passionately against entering twice on the argument that no other sport allows this, well motor racing you can enter as many events on the day as you like and in the same car if you are silly enough.

Jugs

Hi Jugs,

 

Great to hear your thoughts .. And after shooting factory and custom class
in wagga.. I know what you mean about running your arse off shooting 2 out
of three details with different rifles, bags and rests.

 

I hear what you are saying about entering twice as in motor sport.. And
using a heavy gun and a light gun is directly comparable.You can enter as
many events as you like and win any or all of them, but you can't enter
heats of the same event twice with either entry being capable of the overall
win for the day.. And basically if there is an overall or 2 day
competition.. Two entries gives you that.

 

If shooting two different rifles, I agree that the negatives meet the
positives and more power to those that want to enter twice.. But the same
rifle from the same rest and bench in two details... is that different ?
Maybe.  I only have one competitive rifle and it would be better for me if I
could enter it in both classes and not have to nominate, but I see others
point that this might constitute an advantage. Twice as many sighters and
the chance to stuff up one detail and still win.

 

You are right that it will not go away, as some people are passionate about
their point of view. I for one don't care that much and am happy either and
as such would like to see more discussion and an agreement reached
nationally so that it is not an issue at events for the future.  In the mean
time, the event organisers just need to clearly set the rules for their
event and that's that as they say.

 

Cheers

 

Anthony

On this subject I have a firm view that if there is a 'Two-Gun' (such as at Bateman's Bay) or a trophy for overall winner or something like the 'Dirty Dozen' in Canberra then those who enter both classes of the 500mt event should be able to use the best result of their two entries. The only way I consider that someone could get 'two bites at the cherry' would be if both their results were to count in which case they may place twice if they have achieved two good scores.For example - figuring twice in Canberra's "dirty Dozen' or taking two of the top 3 placings in the Batemans Two-Gun. Personally, I feel that if someone is good enough to rank twice then why should they not be rewarded but I doubt that would be the majority view. I recall that at this years Federal cup I used the same rifles in both classes and it was a coin toss to nominate my 'valid' entry. As luck had it I nominated my LG entry. Had the toss gone the other way then I would have won LG and finished second overall yet not been in the 'Dirty Dozen' !  So where would the justice have been in that? Similarly, at Batemans, if it were not for pre-nominating my class I would have finished second in the Two-Gun. Frankly, if it were not for being able to shoot both classes many of us would re-consider tavelling as far as we do to get to some of these matches so double entries will live on, limited only by places available. The only reason I don't travel to shoot 'F' class on the NRAA ranges is that they will not accomodate double entries (eg Std and Open 'F' classes). Sorry, wandering off topic a bit.

Pete

The debate going on with this post is excellent and is heading in the direction the forum is intended. On the matter of entering two events and running your arse off all day is so true however there are shooters like myself and others who enter twice who just love to shoot. Infact we would enter more classes if they were available.

You often find that shooters who only enter once and love to shoot later begin to think about entering in another class. At Wagga i was remiss in not entering the sporting class on saturday and only shooting the custom section because for me it is about shooting as often as possible. Not to gain an advantage but to simply enjoy the sport.

Go hard for those who want to run around all day taking gear off the bench putting it back on aligning gear trying to settle before the commencement to fire.

If you really break it down those who are shooting two classes are really disadvantaging themselves by doing all this extra work.

Reading conditions can be done just as affectively by watching through a spotting scope a good shooters relay and seeing there fall of shot and make predictions based on the flag indication.

For those who only want to shoot one class that is great but for those who want to shoot two classes good on them for paying twice to work hard all day to achieve their goals.......

cheers and good shooting Les

Hello  Anthony    having read the thoughts  of   other fly shooters  i have  a couple of questions
                 if there was a limit of 60 places at a shoot  and you recieved  48 nominations  for those places
                what would happen if 30 of the shooters nominating wanted to shoot in both classes
                   will 18 of  the nominations be turned away  
                 i have been thinking of building a heavy gun so that i could shoot in both classes  but if it got to
               the stage that it meant that other shooters missed the chance to compete at a shoot because  i wanted
              to shoot  light and heavy  --- i think i would only take one rifle to that shoot  --
                   we need more shooters to attend our shoots   not more rifles that might cut shooter numbers
                 if the shoots get that big  why not turn them into a two day shoot     light gun one day  heavy the next
                                                  john mc quire

Hi John,
If there were 48 entrants and 30 of them nominated for 2 classes  (in a 60 places available shoot).... all 48 would get their first preference and the first 12 in would get to shoot both classes.

I think  it is a very valid choice for some people to shoot 2 classes if  they want to , and it will be a while before we have a problem of reaching maximums at all events.... but if and when that happens we could easily go 2 days like you said and or run more events each year......

Cheers

Anthony

Gentlemen,

Q: If I have only one rifle (LG < 17lbs) but would like to attend two classes (both LG & HG) - is that okay by the rules?

Other than to register & pay the nomination fees (for both classes) before the match.... anything / what else needed (to be prepared)...???

I've never shot both classes before... Do I need to prepare ammo 2 x 40, then? ..... How many minutes (approximately) a shooter can have time between details?.... Would it be very busy???

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My "thought" is, so that I can shoot more / twice times..... 40 rounds (8 rounds x5) a day is not enough for newbie like me, lol.

Well, I "assume" (hope this is correct?) that an LG rifle can shoot (allowed to shoot)  HG class also.... just like a LV gun (same gun) to shoot both LV & HV.

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Thanks you in advance & Happy New Year!
seb.

Hi Seb,

Wow you have been busy on the forum !! good to see !!

Yes, you an certainly enter in both events with your sub 17lb rifle... the only time this would not apply is if the nominations are completely full, then everyone would get one entry (their first choice) and the other spots should be allocated to people entering 2 guns in the order the nominations are received.  Virtually all events around Australia won't have this problem and you will get both of your spots, just make sure you nominate early !!!

You need to have twice the ammo loaded so I would say at least 100 rounds.... you have 6 targets (5 score and 1 warmer for each class) the warmer is 10 minutes unlimited rounds.... so if you shoot 10 in the sighter and 8 on each of the other details, that is exactly 100 rounds.....

As for time, you will be busy.... but there certainly is time to do it easily.  It takes the target crew a while to change the targets and repaint the plates, so you wont have to rush.... and depending on the number of details (3 or 4) you will have a spare detail or two to clean, go to the toilet, eat drink , check your targets and talk shit with everyone else..... you will just be a lot busier than someone shooting one class.

Hope to see you over at some of our shoots.

Cheers

Anthony

Hi Anthony, many thanks for the time & inputs! It is much appreciated mate!

I'll try to come to Canberra for the Australia Day in March.
Will talk to Stuart & Annie about rifle / gears etc.

Cheers,
seb.

Ok, I have talked with Stuart about attending the Federal Cup.
I'll be there.
If possible, I would like to shoot in both classes.
Hope to see you all guys!

seb.

Q: Is there F-class or 1,000 yds match around the date (plus minus 3 days before or after the match)?
I've never shot Fclass or 1,000 yds match before so would like to try if that is possible?...or even just a practice time?
Someone can help?

Anyone can recommend hotel/motel accommodation around the range?

What is the name of the range?... address?

Thanks,
seb.

Good on ya SEB are you borrowing gear from stuart and annie and are they coming as well . we usually turn up friday afternoon to get a bit of practice ,get bench draw ,set up flags,  and set up camp as some of us stay at the ssaa club house.  there will be a specific email address put up so we can nominate for LG and HG or both.   So set up on friday ,500 fly on saturday, and 1000 yard BR  on sunday at the canberra rifle range which is right next door you drive past the benches on the way into ssaa range.  Nominate for 1000 br on saturday at the fly , if not to many shoot it you can get both classes in LG and HG..address is 50 Hector Mc Intosh Grove    Majura   ACT.    cheers  Paul D.

Paul, thanks you for the inputs!

Plan to use my LG gun & gears as Stuart & Annie will also be coming to the Fed Cup. (They keep all my stuffs in Brisbane for me & will bring along with their equipments).
Time, nomination etc allow/ok, I'll shoot in both classes.

If I understand yours correctly, it is very interesting to know that there will be a 1,000 yds match after the Fly....it must be a great time!

seb.