Shooter Of The Year (SOTY) qualification

Hi,

Yes I agree with Pete that a lot of fly shooters pay no attention to SOTY, but non the less, the more accessible we can make it the more it will encourage people to strive to achieve....

As for there being 2 SOTY in batemans bay and 2 in wagga, I think this would encourge more shooters rather than less.... both ranges are planning 2 registered matches for 2012 anyway and if there is the attraction of SOTY points at all of them it will encourage people to come along and have a go, it certainly won't reduce numbers !!

I agree that it should be a minimum of 3 ranges, but in the scheme of this, state borders are irrelevent... it is 487 of good road kms from wagga to little river and 401 from batemans bay to wagga over the clyde mountain etc....  both trips are nearly the same, yet one crosses a state border.  Look at  Townsville to Brisbane 1357 kms and no state border....

As I have said, I think 4 shoots from a minumum of 3 different ranges will encourage people to have a go and shoot as many times as they can, wherever they can get to....

With regard to minimum number of entries to qualify, yes it makes sense and I would support Pete's suggested numbers on that, but  if the shoot is properly advertised and does not clash with other shoots, everyone who wants to is free to attend so I say let it run its course.... if a shoot is run with only 4 HG entries.... imagine the incentive to go to that shoot the following year to try and get maximum points against a smaller field.... again it can't hurt numbers.  Maybe my suggestion of a small bonus above max points for the first three place getters in the big matches (above 30 entries per class)...

I believe that over the next couple of years we will see a lot more people wanting to be in contention for SOTY and it will become more relevant to the majority, so lets make it accessible and competitive

Cheers

Anthony

Getting some good responses here and input which is good. Agree with what you have said Anthony, makes a bit of sense to me. Count 4 shoots from 3 different ranges could work and agree with Pete that lower minimum number for HG possibly.
As you say SOTY is not for everyone and nor should it be. It is just one aspect of the 500m Fly Shoot. The distances between ranges really shouldn't come into it. Look at John McQuire, he did the hugest amount of travelling this year. Because he WANTED TO and enjoyed it. SOTY would have been part of the attraction for him but not the only one I am sure.

I expect soon we will see a new club in Perth come on line. Up at SSAA Pinjar at the northern end of Perth. I have been talking to a new guy there who has been elected the co-ordinator and intends to get serious and he also intends to travel at least to Canberra sometime in 2012 himself. Maybe with others.  Most of their facility is ready now I believe.
We will be over there next Easter so might take a look.

So if that occurs and a shoot in Perth comes on line that would be great but I would not suggest that the SOTY arrangement be modified to just make it easier for those guys. Nor would they expect it I think.


Stuart Elliott

hi guys i think that there are some very good points all round, personally i think that every match that is registered properly should be a SOTY match i don't agree with more points for bigger shoots because shooters will save up to go to them and not the smaller ones.

I think that 5 SOTY shoots to count would not only encourage but it would be hard to achieve as well unless you travelled. Jugsy has said a minimum of four and that would be the minimum.

John Mcquires passion is not only to shoot SOTY matches he does it for the swatting of flies and loves it, this sport is about fun and mate ship and there is no reason this won't become even stronger as the sport grows, some great contributions from pete, stuart, anthony and jugsy perhaps  some of the other shooters in sport can contribute to the forum and put up their views.

The fact that Stuart is working on Perth and i am trying to encourage SA is great for the sport lets keep in mind places that are so remote that it is hard to get may never field minimum numbers then what happens there we loose them. Lets not loose sight of keeping what we already have just make it within the rules eg registered matches and find a way that keeps everyone in the SOTY contention.

If it is only one match from each SOTY match to count if a shooter travels to every match to either better his/her score to to keep someone else from getting a  win then power to them i say.

In the past months since this forum has been running we have covered some magnificent ground in relation to fly shooting and people are really starting to use it for what it is for and that is to help others out and keep the sport focused and moving forward....

best wishes Les

 Hi Folks  in answer to Stuarts and Les's posts  
               I do a lot of kilometers chasing the fly  thats for sure  but i also shoot short range bench rest
           and travel long distances while competing   -- i shot the Super shoot at Little River this year  --
        the drive to a shoot can be a real pain - when the weather is bad  or the roads are being worked on  
       but all that seems to be outweighed  when you shoot a good score or tight group
         i enjoy competing against the best shooters in Australia  
           and the only way you can do this is to travel  
        What ever the format for the SOTY is in 2012  does not realy matter to me  i will still go to as many
        shoots as i can get to  
          all i want to see is more shooters try to do the same thing  
         now that SSAA has control of the Fly  there is no reason it can't grow to be as big as normal bench rest
           and if that means we have to shoot light gun one day and heavy gun on the next  -- so be it  --
          the more shooters the better for our sport
                                    john mc quire

I have been giving this a lot of thought and cannot get away from the facts of 'historical' attendance numbers and the way this should reflect on both a minimum entry level for SOTY and some sort of reward for those who do well at the bigger matches.
At this stage I would stay with my earlier suggestion of minimums (5 for HEAVY, 10 for LIGHT) to meet SOTY qualification. As for the mimimum number of scores/points to count I would certainly  agree that 4 is the least we should consider. I also concur that the 4 (minimum) should be from 3 different States/Territories.  My real dilemma is how to award points.  Last years system has it's merits but fails to acknwledge  good results in big fields. (The 'Super-Car" series that this was based on usually saw the same field competing at every round regardless of venue - not quite the same in our sport). I will think some more and come back with some sort of proposal on points allocation.
Pete

Some good ideas going here.

I think 4 shoots from 3 RANGES should be the minimum for SOTY. I think using 3 ranges is more appropriate than 3 states. Its a bloody long way for our Townsville friends to get to a third state!

I agree that every registered match should be illegible for SOTY points.

On the points system I will briefly outline what Wagga club does for its local SOTY. Points are simply awarded for number of competitors beaten. If a club comp has 23 entries and you come first you get 23 points. If there are only 10 shooters you get 10 points, 2nd would get 9 points and so on. It is simply a reverse ranking system that is easy to do on an excel scoring program. We have found this to be a fairer system overall. It encourages consistancy across all our different competitions.

Anyway just my two cents.

Bring on 2012.
Chappo
Greg Chapman

Hi Chappo,

Mate I agree totally that it has to be 3 RANGES not states, if it was states it would discourage people from going to both Wagga and Batemans Bay as well as making it all but impossible for north QLD shooters....

The only people that three states would suit would be the Victorians, as Little River, Canberra and one of the nsw ranges = 3 states... Where as Townsville, Brisbane and Canberra or Batemans Bay, Wagga and Canberra are only 2 states.

While the reverse ranking sounds great for local club shoots (I might pinch that idea for here also), I think it would seriously disadvantage the smaller FLY shoots..... ie for winning in Townsville against 15 competitors you get only 15 points where as for coming 20th in canberra in a field of 70 gives you 50 points, a win is a win and should be rewarded that's why the current points system works so well......as I said earlier, maybe a small bonus points system  for winning / placing in a very large field would be good.

Cheers
Anthony

I have to disagree with Chappo's proposal of  4 shoots from 3 ranges (as against 4 fron 3 States/Terrirories). This could well be a dis-incentive to travel. A NSW or ACT shooter would have 4 matches in easy driving distance - 2x Canberra, one each at Batemans and Wagga - hardly meets the 'travel criteria' we are trying to promote  especially as Vctorians and Queenslanders would have to venture out of ther home state/territoy at least twice..

On to the issue of scoring SOTY - after some thought I have the following to offer (on top my earlier suggestion of minimum entries for LG @10 and HG @5) -

LG - 1 point for every shooter you beat to a maximum of 20 points, plus bonus points for 1st, 2nd, 3rd of 6, 4, 2 respectively.

HG - 1 point for every shooter you beat to a maximum of 10 points, plus bonus points for 1st, 2nd, 3rd of 3, 2, 1 resectively.

This proposal would ensure that the really big shoots (eg Canberra) whose entry is bolstered by locals/newbies/etc would not cause dominance in the results - other major matches with traditional entry levels in the 30 to 50 range would be capable of generating similar scores to the 'contenders'. Granted the smaller matches (eg Qld) would be less likely to contribute to a SOTY victory, but that then becomes an issue for the locals to address in terms of getting interest in this discipline to grow.

My reasoning for the above hinges around the trditional entry level of LG vs HG

Pete i agree with your proposal it is certainly about getting folks to travel with disadvantaging those who choose not to.
The points system you suggest is a good proposal and everyone should consider it closely.
Well done
Les

Well I don't know what others may be considering but I consider my proposal could be improved by giving LG placegetters the same bonus points as HG - i.e. 3, 2, 1. This would help to keep the contest more open as the year progresses. Inthe past it has all too often become a two-horse race by mid-year. If things were ideal then we should see a situation where the matter is not settled until the last qualifier and with 3 or more shooters still in contention. The more nearly a scoring system can approach creating this situation the better. Individual wins and places at qualifying matches are their own reward so keeping the bonus points modest seems to me to be reasonable. Points earned in HG should not in any way be compared to LG as different criteria is used based on the historical 2 to 1 ratio of entries in LG vs HG. Can we get some feed-back on this proposal?? Unless of course some has another idea altogether.
Pete

Ill say this straight off the bat

Having points linked to the number of shooters is a step backwards. (sorry Pete), works OK at club level but not for a larger competition

Think of it this way, one shoot to go you are second by just a few points, would you bother driving hundreds of kilometers if a win could be anything from 5 points up to a max 10.  I think you need to know how much a win gets you not how many people turn up that makes the difference.

If only 4 shooters are going to turn up then you had better make sure you are one of the 4.

I think that it should be each range can run 2 shoots with 4 shoots to qualify from 3 states and QLD should be considered as 2 states, North and South due to the distances involved.

I have done a spreadsheet for distances traveled based on the above (just for interest sake).fly_range_distances.xlsx

So lets split this discussion into 2 parts
1. Qualification Shoots
  1.1 - 4 Shoots instead of the current 3
  1.2 - 3 different states (QLD as 2 states ie. North & South QLD)
  1.3 - 3 different ranges
  1.4 - Each state can run 2 qualification shoots (4 for QLD ie. North & South QLD)
  1.5 - Each eligible range can run 2 qualification shoots (currently Townsville, Brisbane, Canberra, Wagga, B'Bay & Melbourne)

2. Scoring System
  2.1 - Stay with current setup
  2.2 - Have a minimum number of shooters for points to count
  2.3 - Change points to a be linked to the number of shooters that turn up.
  2.4 - Use current setup with a different spread between positionsPoints_Spread_Fly_SOTY.xls

My Vote is for 1.1, 1.2, 1.5 & 2.4

Let me know what you think

Jugs

what you are saying is true Jugsy i think that everyone is trying to get the best out of this, so i am supportive of your suggestions. The point system worked this year so why change it of the wheel isn't flat it doesn't need fixing.

To have two qualifying shoots at each range gives people the chance to do their best and have that score put up.

at the end of the day what we all want is to see folks travel and enjoy the sport, there are certainly those shooters who don't travel and that is ok for them but if there is encouragement then they might travel at some stage.

I think your proposal jugsy works so we would be nearly able to put it to a vote soon
cheers Les

       Just my two cents worth
                  to get more people to travel the long distances to some of the shoots
               there has to be some way of knowing what points you would get if you won the shoot
             and if you shot a high score for that shoot it would help your SOTY result
                the idea of breaking Queensland into 2 states would help us Queenslanders
             and having to travel to 3 states would not be a problem for the southeners
              to have 4 shoots count towards the SOTY  instead of the currant 3  would be O K
           but I think the difference between  1st 2nd 3rd 4th  etc  etc  in the points system is too large
              everyone knows just how hard it is to get into the top five places at a big shoot  
          and i think that they should be rewarded for the effort
                  i hope to see you all at the shoots next year   with all the new gear you got for Christmas
                                          john mc quire  

John

I think you have confused me

You are saying the points between 1st 2nd 3rd is to large but then you say you should be rewarded for being in the top 5??

The idea of the points spread is that the closer to the top the more reward, are you trying to say that for example

1st - 100
2nd - 95
3rd - 91
4th - 88
5th - 86
6th - 76
7th - 75
etc

ie a big jump from 5th to 6th but the top five is a small spread.

essentially when you look at the new points i am proposing the top 12 get some sort of bonus yet the top 6 get the bigger bonus.

If you look at the 2011 SOTY the top three shooters for their best 3 were always in the top half dozen, so really the points spread of rewarding the top 6 seemed to work, my new proposal is simply to try and get rid of the high chance of a draw.

Jugs

 Hi Jugs   sorry for the bit of confusion
                the large points difference i was talking about was in the 2011  scores
              the new sugestions at the moment are only beeing looked at by the shooters who care about the rules
            its great to see a lot of shooters getting involved in this debate
               what ever the outcome  is  it will make for better competition
            you will never be able to please everyone  
              I am happy to shoot at any of the shoots  listed for next year  and do want to try some new ranges
           the more places you can shoot at  helps with all the different conditions we run into around Australia
               also helps the fly patch colection  !
           did you know that Cairns is trying to get a fly shoot organised for next year   ?
                        regards  john mc quire

Hi Guys,]

As someone with no horse in this race, my heavy gun has an adjustable rear rest, I think you need to keep foremost 2 things;

1. Make it equitable

2. Keep in mind what made it successful in the first place


A point was made earlier that a Vic shooter could drive 400 odd k and be eligible, whereas a Townsville shooter would have to travel about 2500k to shoot in three states. Not too many can afford that in this day and age. Look at as was suggested the 3 ranges, rather than 3 states, this might also help some of the up and coming  clubs.

Don't set the bar too high in regards to the number of shooters than constitutes a match, and if need be, take a leaf out of the 1000yd postals and get an email pic of the results sent to whoever wants to be the keeper of the scores. Remember, if you say it needs 10 HG to make a match, I'll just get 3 friends to register, put one bullet in each of their first targets, and hey presto, I have 4 HG competitors straight up.

In terms of the points awarded, you must know what you are fighting for, before you begin the competition. Ever wonder why the yanks lost Vietnam? Didn't know what they were fighting for! I doubt too many shoters will turn up if it might be 6 points, or it might be 12.

A personal plea, change the rules so that any IBS or Aus 1000Yd gun can compete, at the moment, the only shoot I can enter is the club event, for shits and giggles.

Jeff Harrison

Gentlemen,

When I shot the fly last 2004 & 2006 (if I remember correct?), I could see my result in the "SOTY" and was able to see other shooters (their names) & their results. *Forgot where I did see it? but it's somewhere in a flyshoot forum....

I am sorry for my ignorance (don't know much about flyshooting & its official sanctioning body myself)...also I understand that SOTY is not really important.... BUT it was good to know the participants/ competitors # and their result - because it can help to compare our result with the others (i.e. just in one easy to read result sheet)...it can also help to make some evaluation & goal for the next match, even for participants that cannot shoot many matches in a year... (like me & some Kiwi shooters, just for instance)

Inquiring mind wants to know...if the fly SOTY is limited/qualified for 3 specific matches, does it mean that I can't see all fly participant shooters, then?

------

Is there official website, or source, to see the (current) Fly SOTY?

------

Best Wishes,
seb.


 

Hi Seb
All the results are on this website and i put them up as soon as i get them from the organisers usually the same day. If you look at the tab- Score and Soty you click on the link and up it comes.

I am more than happy to post 200, 300.500 matches on here and do as much PR for all three.  As for Jeff's comment about making his rifle ok for fly is it because you have an adjustable rear rest? Adjustable rear rests are not in the rules or are they likely to be, however if you would like to put it up formally sure put it in the interim rule thread and let other shooters debate the topic. The rules pertaining to rests have been strict and kept that way so that mew shooters don't have to worry about getting an extra piece of kit machined up to have an adjustable rear rest. New guys can buy a front rest and rear back  bag and they are in the hunt straight up.

I am always looking to improve the sport however if we start moving to rear adjustable rests, the next move will be why are we excluding Rail guns, or configurations of. But this forum is about debate, so please post your thoughts and rationale on the topic and we can all have a think and say about it.

cheers Les

Hi Seb
All the results are on this website and i put them up as soon as i get them from the organisers usually the same day. If you look at the tab- Score and Soty you click on the link and up it comes.

I am more than happy to post 200, 300.500 matches on here and do as much PR for all three.  As for Jeff's comment about making his rifle ok for fly is it because you have an adjustable rear rest? Adjustable rear rests are not in the rules or are they likely to be, however if you would like to put it up formally sure put it in the interim rule thread and let other shooters debate the topic. The rules pertaining to rests have been strict and kept that way so that mew shooters don't have to worry about getting an extra piece of kit machined up to have an adjustable rear rest. New guys can buy a front rest and rear back  bag and they are in the hunt straight up.

I am always looking to improve the sport however if we start moving to rear adjustable rests, the next move will be why are we excluding Rail guns, or configurations of. But this forum is about debate, so please post your thoughts and rationale on the topic and we can all have a think and say about it.

cheers Les

Les,
In my perspective (i.e. to allow/attract more participants), I will allow any shooters to use any rear rest for the Fly...adjustable/mechanical included. Reason is I don't believe there is such a perfect return to battery set up with a bag gun. *Rail gun is not included in this criteria...section 3.1.1.4 (Restrictions) clearly says that no return to battery set-ups, e.g. rail gun.
Others maybe disagree with this. --- for me, an adjustable/mechanical rear rest is basically same with adjustable/mechanical front rest (which is allowed/legal), only used in opposite side. -- I will not protest anyone using a mechanical rear rest - myself, because it will not give better result or better setup than using a mechanical front rest. I would even allow the use of one piece rest, or mechanical front & rear rest - both, IF that is what he wants. Someone will not win a match (just) because he uses a mechanical rear rest (instead of a mechanical front rest), nor he has advantage using a mechanical rear rest rather than a mechanical front rest, if he is not capable to win.

Other "reason" is, because section 1.1.1 (Aims & Objectives) mentions that "The Fly Shoot match was developed to provide a challenge to competitors to achieve extreme accuracy in firearms, ammunition, equipment and shooting methods" -- this to my understanding (please correct me if i'm wrong?), the words combination: "developed to provide a challenge to achieve extreme accuracy",  "equipment", & "shooting methods" ---> support/allowing the use of "any equipments" and "any methods".

Also that "any" rifle / scope / stock configuration, etc in the Flyshoot... so in my humble opinion, any rear rest or front rest, as long as they're not built to return to battery, would be "ok" or "any" too.  

But rule is rule anyway.
There are people who "like" to protest (even make it as a habit), there are people who like/obey the rules - whatever the rule is.  *(In any places, I think).
My advise for new shooters is to follow/obey the rules, with respect, -- and have an understanding that the rules are made for the goodness of us all/all participants.

What would be the world/any thing without rules, or restrictions?

seb.