Stateof Origin

Hi Guys,

A while back Les suggested a 'State of Origin' shield for the 500 Fly. Let's get back onto this one as I think Vic (and more to the point Geelong - with 8 of ten trophies from the Canberra Pro-Cal Challenge) is ready for battle! What think you from the other states - most particularly NSW? No whimping-out now. As the years roll on I am finding it tougher each match and these young people from Geelong can't be that LUCKY every shoot surely. Now is the time for a foray into 2012 - Les can set the ground rules if he is prepared to put up the trophy.

Pete

Hi Pete  what a great idea   it should generate much wanted competition between the states
              when do you think it could start
            do we need teams or will individual shooters be accepted  
           Les would be the person to get the ball rolling for sure
              and this forum is the perfect place to discuss the format to be followed
           even if the only thing won is the braging rites for a year
                 bring it on
                                   john mc quire

Great Idea !! Nothing like a bit of inter state rivalry to add some interest !!

If Les is prepared to run the event and keep the scores on the web site etc, I would be prepared to put up a shield to the value of  say $200 as a Clyde Mazda - 500mflyshooter.com.au State of Origin series perpetual shield.

As a start for format / ground rules discussion .... see below.... what are your thoughts ?.... as long as we kick the butts of the cheeky victorians does it matter :)

500M Fly Shoot - State of Origin Series 2012

QLD – NSW – VIC

The series comprises of five matches per year, one in Vic , one in QLD, two in NSW as well as one of the ACT Matches.  Matches must be registered, but do not need to be SOTY matches.  All matches to be advertised on www.500mflyshooter.com.au at least 2 months before the match.
Each state to have a team captain who selects team members etc. (i.e. Les for NSW, PVM for Vic and John M from QLD).
Must have at least two entries from each of the three states for the match to proceed.
Teams to comprise of the number of competitors from the least represented state with a minimum of 2 and a maximum of 6.  Teams to be decided and recorded prior to the match commencing. Places to be determined by averaging the scores of all team members.  
A win is 3 points, 2nd is 2 points and 3rd is 1 point.

Questions
Do we make it all light gun ? or just open to one entry from each individual team member with either light or heavy guns ?
Will we get 2 QLD entries to a VIC event ?
Will we get 2 NSW and Vic  entries to a QLD event ?

hi mate happy to set up the state of origin rules and post them here and even more happy to sponsor the event
cheers Les

Anthony and i and pete will talk at Batemans bay aswell and come up with some ideas then i will post them on here so everyone can contribute. Pete was good enough to give me a plastic mould of a bench rest shooter which i will put on an Australian timber map of Australia which will be of some size so lots of little shields can be put on.

Thanks Anthony for the donation of $200 that will go towards a trophy to be handed to the shooters. I think that as an extra to the fly shoot we should have one stage at the end of the day shoulder to shoulder to decide the state of origin. What do you guys think about this?

and Yes it will be open to all states i heard that even South Australia shoot the fly so they may come to Vic. Points will be awarded at each even if there is two states in attendance.

Also it needs to be three shooters from each state and this would then encourage people to travel. This is not a sport for differences of opinions from state to state. If some folks don't like some folks then that is their issue and will not effect who this will run.

I am also writing a guidelines/ rule book for the fly to go to our state delegate so we can get some uniformity across the entire sport, i will post it on here for you input and once it is done i will put it to our delegate in NSW as pete suggested.

Your thoughts
Les

The format for this was discussed at Batemans and the following was resolved -

The matches to count will be the two ACT  shoots - as these are the only ones likely to have some sort of representation from at least 3 states/territories.
The 3 best scores from each state at each match to be aggregated to find a winner. In the event of  double entry from a single shooter at one match only the best score to count. At the end as many as 6 shooters could end up representing their state. No pre-nomonation of team or individual's class is required.

A grand new plaque is being organised by Les Fraser with generous financial help from Batemans Bay car dealership Clyde Mazda (ie Anthony Hall - who has already done so much in his short time in this sport).

A hypothetical review of 2011 would (I think) show -
NSW - 1389.15 (Mitch Tallar x2, Mark Tallar, Barry Tucker, Mick Frr, Murray Hicks)
Vic     - 1374.18 (PvM x2, Jason Trotter x2, Tyson Trottr x2)
ACT  -  1129.09 (Dave Groves x2, Mick Easton x2, Rob Small, Jim McKinley)

Pete

Hi all please note that the plaque is near completion for this event,
This is how i see the event could possibly be run.

Run at the BRT Federal Cup and the Pro Cal event that way one range has the hosting.

The top four shooters from each state scores added together for the trophy only Light gun entries to be included the reason for this is that by allowing heavy gun entries you are allowing those of us who shoot two classes two bites at the cherry which is not fair to the others on the day.

To also qualify for the team a fee of $5 to be paid so that we can buy Cap's for the winners to retain after the Procal. This may mean up to 8 hats for the winners of the event.

I think that Pete VM, Anthony and myself can run this event and it will not hinder the great work done by the current organisers as we will keep the states and present the trophy at the end of the day.

your thoughts please

Having just read the team event posts i would like to alter this by saying that you can enter either your LG or HG but not both so this must be decided prior to the warmer target.

your thoughts
cheers Les

Hi Les   with all the talk about the Teams Shoot  in the spot light  
            is there still going to be a State Of Origin  competition  held  
                I think there would be as much interest generated by this shoot  as there would be from the Team Shoot
          there will be at least 4 Queenslanders at the shoot    -- we might be outnumbered  - but who cares  
                 see you at Canberra
                           john mc quire

Hi John the trophy is nearly finished looks great the state of Origin will go ahead as planned
cheers Les

HI all,

Please consider my views on this matter.

Pre-nominating for State of origin would give NSW a huge advantage.

Let's look at a hypothetical -

QLD   3 shooters  locked in to  3 results  (or if not pre-nom 3 of possibly 6)

ACT   6 shooters  get 3 0f 6  (or 3 of as many as say 9)

Vic    5 shooters  get 3 of 5  (or 3 of as many as 10)

NSW  60 shooters get 3 of 60   (0r 3 of say 75)

OK, it's reasonable to assume that the QLD and Vic entries would be highly ranked competitors, but, were Vic for example to end up with more entrants there would likely never be more than 6 seasoned campaigners. Similarly ACT would most probably be quite limited in terms of experience to draw on. On the other hand NSW could have 15 to 20 'contenders' to contribute worthwhile scores! Allowing those who are double entered to use their best result may or may not help NSW to any real extent but it will certainly give the others a fair go.

I agree that  each state must use only one result from each of three individuals, but to lock in which of a double entered shooters results is to count would  make it nearly impossible for other states to be competitive against NSW. This has the potential to make State of Origin a farce.

I would urge Les to re-consider his suggestion, as my recollection of the 4 way conversation at Batemans Bay made no mention of such a move.

Pete

Hi all after reading pete's email his figures makes some sense however i was trying to get everyone on a level playing field given that most of the top 12 shooters shoot two classes and by making it all light gun then everyone has a crack at it.

Not withstanding this i am happy if only the highest score from the one shooter to count it just means that those shooting two guns have double the chance of the other shooters.

The State of Origin is a great idea and really doesn't have an impact on the way the shoot is run or pressure on any shooter it will just mean to some, that they were able to shoot in a winning team for their state in fly shooting and be recognised for it.

I really hope that everyone takes the chance to shoot in state of origin and lucky enough for thier scores to be an assistance in the winning team.

Also the State of Origin is not mine alone it belongs to everyone in this sport so have your say, but do it early only weeks now till Canberra and the first Nationals.

If anyone needs any assistance with anything then please contact me and i will help out where i can. If you know of a shooter that might be interested in having a go at this sport then please invite them along, i have tagged most of my outgoing emails with the Canberra shoot flyer. If we all work together on this then it will be a huge success......

cheers and good shooting to all
Les

Hello Les  and all others  
                                               looks like the State of Origin shoot is turning into another
                                  battle between not only the States but also Light Gun against Heavy Gun
                      do the people who want to shoot both classes and want to pick their best score to count
                  have to pay the nomination fee for both classes  or do they just get two bites of the cherry  
                      how many shooters are there who will only shoot the heavy Gun Class  and not a light gun at all
                seeing that there are two classes being shot  for two sets of trophies  in the main shoot of the day
                   why can't there be both classes recognised on the State of Origin  shield  
                         like Les has said   -- have your say on this matter  --  you are the shooters who can represent
                  your state  ---  what format would you like it to be run under  --
                                       Only Light Gun
                                       Only Heavy Gun
                                    a Combination of both classes

                            or  don't care about class   just the best top scores  of any shooter  from your State

                    regards  john mc quire

Having read and considered both sides....

I would say take the best scores from each state.... what does it matter ... LG or HG.... it is state of origin - open class...

Lets beat their HG scores with our LG's just to add salt to their wounds !! :)

Seriously though, too complicated to collect pre nominations of class etc for State of Origin.....

Just take the best scores from each state for the 2 shoots in canberra, add them all up and declare the winners.... no second place.... losers can cry etc...

Cheers

Anthony

Hi All,

Although  Les and Anthony have thrown in their support for my proposal I would like to toss in some stats to help convince any doubters out there.

I will use last years Fed Cup as my model -

Down to 70th place - NSW 35 shooters for 46 entries (11 doubles)
                                         - Vic    5 shooters for 10 entries (all doubles)
                                         - neither ACT or QLD had enough shooters or did not rank well enough to matter in this model.

Top 20   - NSW -  10 shooters (13 entries - ie 3x double)
                  - Vic   -   2 shooters  (4 entries - both double)

This is probably starting to confuse some of you but please read on.

Best case scenario (3 different shooters with their best result if double entered) -
                   NSW  -  741.09
                     Vic  -  708.09
                                                     Margin to NSW  33.00 points
Worst case scenario (3 different shooters and ALL the state's shooters that were double entered having chosen, by pre-nomination, what turned out to be their worst result) -
                   NSW  -  735.07
                    Vic   -  678.05
                                                      Margin to NSW  57.02 points

Notice how NSW, with it's big field, only suffered a 6 point difference between best and worst case compared to Vic's whopping 30 point difference.

For any State/Territory to have a fair crack at this it is essential that their limited entry numbers be given the chance to offset the NSW numerical advantage by allowing a double-entered contestant's best result.

Anyway, it's virtually locked in on the 'Best Result' version but I just wanted to offer any doubters a bit of an explanation.

Pete

Hi All,

Although  Les and Anthony have thrown in their support for my proposal I would like to toss in some stats to help convince any doubters out there.

I will use last years Fed Cup as my model -

Down to 70th place - NSW 35 shooters for 46 entries (11 doubles)
                                         - Vic    5 shooters for 10 entries (all doubles)
                                         - neither ACT or QLD had enough shooters or did not rank well enough to matter in this model.

Top 20   - NSW -  10 shooters (13 entries - ie 3x double)
                  - Vic   -   2 shooters  (4 entries - both double)

This is probably starting to confuse some of you but please read on.

Best case scenario (3 different shooters with their best result if double entered) -
                   NSW  -  741.09
                     Vic  -  708.09
                                                     Margin to NSW  33.00 points
Worst case scenario (3 different shooters and ALL the state's shooters that were double entered having chosen, by pre-nomination, what turned out to be their worst result) -
                   NSW  -  735.07
                    Vic   -  678.05
                                                      Margin to NSW  57.02 points

Notice how NSW, with it's big field, only suffered a 6 point difference between best and worst case compared to Vic's whopping 30 point difference.

For any State/Territory to have a fair crack at this it is essential that their limited entry numbers be given the chance to offset the NSW numerical advantage by allowing a double-entered contestant's best result.

Anyway, it's virtually locked in on the 'Best Result' version but I just wanted to offer any doubters a bit of an explanation.

Pete

G'day all,
                   I have been involved in State Teams over the years with SSAA Combined Services discipline, the method that they use is to count the top 4 shooters results from each states entries, no pre-nomination required, in that discipline there are multiple classes of firearms, but only "Genuine Military Rifle" in an unmodified state is used for state teams scores, even though people can shoot all of the various stages of a Nationals with one of a number of rifles.

I would suggest that at the end of the day, the classes might not matter, plenty of Light guns have been successful over the years, so don't get wrapped around the axle about that.

Just count the top four scores from each state towards the state of origin, no double entries, it is a State's score, so you want to be as inclusive as possible and have as many people in it as possible.

Just my thougts.

Hi Dave i agree top four shooters from each state regardless of who they are or the class the enter. That way it is open for everyone, the trophy is finished by a mate of mine Greg Emms who has done a fantastic job. I really hope that the trophy stays on for years to come as the sport grows.

I must say that given the past few months this forum has seen a lot of very positive discussion which i believe has been for the benefit of fly shooting in general.

cheers Les

Good Day Peter    now that we have shot the first leg of the State of Origin  
                    can you give us an idea of the score so far
                        regards   john mc quire

Hi John and others,

After round one the scores are as follows -

NSW     759.12    (Murray Hicks, Anthony Hall, Les Fraser)
QLD     724.07    (Stuart Elliot, Annie Elliot, John McQuire)
VIC      709.03   (Jason Trotter, Tyson Trotter, Jaegen Peet)
ACT     620.04    (Michael Easton, Dave Groves, Hans Hoitink)

There may have been a higher ranked ACT shooter than Hans but I am never sure whether some people are NSW or ACT.

NSW are in a commanding position and it will take some sort of miracle to overtake them.

Pete